Catching Up With... Wilco's Nels Cline and John Stirratt

Both were on the bus when we rang, on the way to tonight's gig in Jacksonville, Ore., and had plenty to say about the new album and Wilco's evolution over the years. We also think it's incredibly fitting that while we spoke with cutting-edge guitarist Cline, in the background, there was what sounded like the continuous buzz of some noise record filtering through, as if it were his personal soundtrack music that followed him everywhere he went. Or maybe it was just some weird phone interference. Either way.

Cline: Well, musically it wasn’t a difficult adjustment. In fact, I think that Pat [Sansone] and I coming in when we did, just without any kind of real effort it seemed to work out very well right away. I really think that if I had actually thought about it too much, I might’ve been more nervous. I didn’t really realize—even though I had opened for Wilco before—how popular Wilco was, and how many people thought about Wilco in the course of their day, so I think I might’ve been a little bit more unnerved. But, you know, music first. So I just thought about how to play. ... And I took my cues from Jeff and John and Glen, and they seemed pleased so I think it was alright. As far as how it has changed my life, it’s pretty dramatic, frankly. You know, my personal life disintegrated because I’m never home and that’s a whole other story. But other than that, beyond the fact that I’m having such a good time doing this, and it’s a successful endeavor and visible, it also entailed, quite unexpectedly, one of the people that works for Wilco’s management ending up managing me, as well. They take care of a lot of my outside Wilco activity and are really doing a lot of wonderful things for me, personally. So that was completely unexpected and really marvelous—the whole idea behind the band, besides the obvious music-making and getting out and playing all the time, is that what I do is encouraged and what Autumn Defense or what Glenn does [is encouraged]. It’s encouraged to do music outside of the band, [and] to bring things back in as a result. There’s no exclusivity or paranoia. So that’s a big change. It makes the commitment to the band so much easier because I still am dedicated to trying to do as much of my own music, and also improvising and playing with some of my other colleagues around the country, as much as possible when I’m not doing Wilco. 

Paste: You guys have the new album coming out today. Tell me about what it was like recording it—what were the sessions like? How was it working with Jim Scott as a producer? Cline: I had met Jim when he mixed the Wilco live album and Sky Blue Sky because he was working in L.A., or at least north of L.A. So I already knew I really liked him. Jeff goes way back with him, Jeff and John. He sort of co-produced, in the sense that, really, he was there to make sure that things stayed on track and that they sounded great. He has a very, very gentle way of getting what he wants out of a situation. He’s very giving. He’s very relaxed. He has no, like, shall we say, controlling tendencies. So it was really pretty seamless and transparent. Certainly, working on this record was very different from Sky Blue Sky because Jeff, right away, wanted the record to be more studio intensive—more overdubbing and more sonic flavors. After demo-ing up the songs—I guess everybody knows now that some of the guys [Tweedy, Stirratt, Sansone and drummer Glenn Kotche] were down in New Zealand working on this Oxfam benefit [7 Worlds Collide] with Neil Finn—and they had such a good groove going because Jim Scott was down there also, recording as an engineer, and they just booked extra time and did a bunch of basic [tracks] there. In that way, it was completely different from Sky Blue Sky, which was essentially a live record in the studio, and very team-written. The team arranging continues with this record, but it was just a different process because a lot of what we did was add to basic tracks and then eventually, in the mixing, we saw what came out in the wash, whereas with Sky Blue Sky we kind of knew all the parts were good to go, and things didn’t have to be subtracted from the mix. All we had to do was mix what was recorded. And actually, Jim Scott doesn't really have a very proprietary way of mixing. He likes to just put in whatever he thinks sounds good and doesn’t say, ‘Oh gee that part really didn’t work, and now I’m not putting it in the mix.’ Unless Jeff or somebody says they don’t like it, it all ends up being in there. So that’s nice. But it’s a very different process. It’s more of an over-dubbing record than a live record.

Paste: I know that, on the new record, there’s more layering, and like you said, it’s more of a studio record. There’s a little more experimentation. But I think it's interesting and ironic that you’re known for being this great experimental guitar player, yet Wilco’s weirdest, most envelope-pushing sound explorations came before you were in the band. 

Cline: [Laughs]

Paste: How do you feel about that? It seems like the last two Wilco albums have moved away from the song deconstruction and sonic experimentation. 

Cline: I don’t really hear it that way. I never thought Yankee Hotel Foxtrot was a weird record. It had great songwriting, and had about a million overdubs that needed to be reigned in. The thing that I’ve missed, that I have not been privy to on albums, nor has Pat, is the so-called "Fundamentals" types of experimentation and all that, most of which you can hear on the CD that’s in The Wilco Book. I think that most of that [experimental] stuff doesn’t end up on the Wilco records. The Wilco records are all about songs. I don’t really consider Being There or A.M. or Summerteeth to be experimental records, nor do I consider A Ghost is Born to be an experimental record, but it does have experimental elements. And I probably could guess that the world is happy that there’s not an 11-and-a-half minute drone used on the [new] record. 

Paste: Actually, I kind of grew to like that. [referring to A Ghost Is Born's "Less Than You Think"]

Cline: Well, see, a lot of people did, but I don’t think you want to hear that on every record. I think that what Jeff wanted to do with this record was do something that wasn’t too long, that was much more, I guess, classic—classicist, I should say—in terms of the lengths and the breadths of the program that would fit on one record and would just be a collection of real songs that aren't in any way enhanced or extended or gussied-up or deconstructed. Those events are anomalies more than the normal Wilco thing. I think the reason Wilco’s successful, and why Jeff is successful, is because there’s so many songs. I don’t think that most people will come to Wilco expecting to hear "Less Than You Think" for 11 minutes. The thing is, though, I’m not missing the idea of experimentation because my dedication to playing in this band has more to do with fitting into the orchestra and just doing what’s proper for each song. I think that there could be something extremely wild and weird coming from us from around the corner at any point. I just never know when that point is gonna be. Certainly, it gets talked about, maybe more rebelliously after having done something that’s more just songs. Jeff kind of exploded out of this batch of songs. It sounded very finished right away. 

Paste: You’ve been playing with the band for five years now. How has it changed and evolved since you’ve started playing with them? 

Cline: I think there are a few ways to answer that question. One way is to say that it hasn’t changed hardly at all because it’s been the longest solid lineup in Wilco history. The only thing that’s slightly changed is that it seems even more fun now than it did at first. I think we’re just really feeling like we’re in a groove, and everybody has a really good time playing the gigs and touring, and we get along really well and we’re just having a blast. I think we’re having maybe more of a blast and enjoying each other’s playing and company more now than before, which possibly is upsetting for people to read about because there’s no drama, but that’s just the way that I see it.

Cline: Well, when I first came into the band, my biggest concern when Jeff sent me an unmastered, unsequenced version of A Ghost Is Born was what I was gonna do, because he was playing so much great guitar on that record. But he just says, “Let’s just start playing and worry about that later.” And we sort of divided it up, divided up the chores. I think that we inherently play well together, and Pat also. I think if you hear “Impossible Germany”—how often in rock have you heard three guitars work that transparently together. I think it's fairly unusual. But it wasn’t arduously arrived at, it was rather meticulously arrived at. It wasn’t difficult. Pat, certainly, of the three of us, has the more classic-rock guitar style. And Jeff has a style that has the possibility of classic lead guitar, but I think he’s at his best when he’s just going off in some way that’s maybe more intuitive. Because I think he does—if you hear his guitar playing in “Spiders [Kidsmoke]”—have a natural flair for the unexpected, and for taking a completely unique direction. But how we all work together I think has as much to do with the combination maybe of the obvious and the unobvious, or the conventional and the unconventional, you know? Jeff, I think, is a very underrated guitarist, especially if you listen to what he plays on acoustic guitar, his finger style and all the different aspects of his roots and the tradition of songwriting. I think that is one thing that doesn’t get talked about much with the guitars—Jeff’s acoustic-guitar work. And I love what he does with that. I don’t know, it just seems to work. Jeff gives me a lot of latitude and I feel a lot of respect. And as such, it’s not really much of an effort to just sort of get these things going. For the most part, though, I don’t initiate or try to push too many ideas. Jeff sort of comes to things when he comes to them, and sometimes we collectively arrive at something that we all enjoy, but I don’t think I’ve ever come with some specific thing that ended up being some marvel [laughs]. I tend to kind of lay back a little bit until I can find my zone each song. 

Paste: What’s the most important thing that you’ve learned from playing with this group of musicians? 

Cline: Well, I mean there are a few things—certainly, playing a certain batch of songs for so many people. One of those things I’ve learned is that my enthusiasm for playing—and I guess to a certain extent I have to accept the verb performing—is pretty much inexhaustible, especially for the old man in the band. I feel like [I have to] commit to the power, or the sentiment or the emotion, or the whatever it is of each song, nightly. And I think that we all pretty much see live performance as the main thrust of the band. And then the other things I’m working on, gradually, that may emerge have to do with me just personally trying to learn more on the instrument. To some extent, it’s about wanting to learn more about how to really play lap steel and maybe even confront the pedal steel, but also certain aspects of guitar playing that I could only call, potentially, more country—with more of a flat-picking approach or more of a Clarence White flavor, which is not my normal thing. And I’m not sure that I’ll ever be a slavish reproducer of that approach, but it does sometimes pop into my head when I hear a song with the right sound, and I’d like to get better at these things. So I do think the potential for me to learn more about my own stylistic or technical abilities is there all the time. Hopefully I can confront these things and get better.

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Paste: You’ve been playing with Wilco from the beginning, and you’re the only original member left besides Jeff. I was wondering, how do you see your role in the band, and how has that role evolved over the years? 

Stirratt: God... well, man, I guess that’s a pretty in-depth question. My role. Well, my role in the band, I don’t know. Like anyone else, just to sort of deal with your particular instrument, to try to keep the bass as interesting as it can be [laughs] when recording, and you know, try to be consistent with the live show. The role over the years, probably not much different than that to be honest—just being part of the group, trying to make a good record. Nothing more interesting than that, I guess.

Paste: At this point, what’s your favorite aspect of playing with Wilco? 

Stirratt: I think the really subtle interplay that the current ensemble has. There really are these wonderful nuances that I think we’ve been able to touch on with a lot of songs, like pretty much almost every song on the list. It's just, there’s a deeper groove, a more dynamic nuance that comes with playing with the same ensemble, with the same guys for five years, which is something that—you know, every other lineup just wasn’t able to have that much [time]. I was younger, I wasn’t probably as good a musician. I don’t think Jeff felt as commanding as he does over the material or on stage, so it's been good to have time to really just get into the material a lot more over a longer period of time with great players.

Paste: This is the longest any Wilco lineup’s been together—what’s it like playing with these guys night to night? 

John: It’s great, it’s this feeling of having an expanding catalog, being able to choose from lots of songs. I mean, we do have sort of staples of the live set, but just to be able to go into the catalog. And it's always nice with the first tour of a new record—that’s generally going to be your favorite thing to play that year, the new material. To see how it works with all the older material, it's exciting.

Paste: The new album came out today, and I've been listening to it a lot lately, and it's funny how it’s a very self-referential record—with Wilco (The Album), and "Wilco (The Song)" and lines like, “Wilco will love you, baby.” How was this idea hatched, and what’s the thinking behind having it be so self-referential? 

Stirratt: I think, mainly, a lot of that came from the song first. The tune ["Wilco (the Song)"] was kicking around for a while, and it has a very playful quality to it. I remember Jeff and everyone throwing out different band [and artist] names like "Nick Lowe" and things like that, and, of course, "Wilco" was always there. It just seemed like a funny idea, like the idea has levity on its own, and Wilco seemed like a pretty fresh idea, to be honest. After sort of struggling with other album titles [this time], there wasn’t an album title that really showed itself the way they have in the past, but—after seeing Wilco (The Album), which is a more generic sort of thing—it just highlighted a moment in time for the band. And the more we realized, “Wow, this is like a record without a backstory”—it’s really nice to cast the ties off of this narrative that everyone has affixed with every record: The "rehab" record; the "post-rehab" record; the "lineup-breakup" record. So, you know, it's really fresh. I mean, I shouldn’t lament that [labeling] because it has brought a lot of attention to the band—that sort of journalistic narrative that accompanies every record. But we never go into a record thinking with any kind of backstory; it's just a moment in time for the band, and I think that’s where the more generic title sort of represents that. Which is where we are now. We like it. 

Paste: So you feel like you’re really free from a lot of the past, and that this is kind of a fresh start? 

Stirratt: Well, not to say that it’s a constraint because it never really was in the past, in terms of us making a record. It didn’t change the process in any way. But you do kind of get saddled with it, just the way the record is perceived, and then you’ve gotta be talking about it in interviews, constantly—it’s just nice to make a record without that.

Stirratt: I think, more in the last two or three records than ever, that Jeff has made the effort—in early playbacks of demos or trying to get takes of [a song]—to let us know what’s going on. Maybe if there’s a line you couldn’t quite hear, to sort of explain. I think there has been more of an effort with him to try to really have a solid idea of the lyrics together before we try to create the framework around it. That being said, I still maybe don’t know [laughs]. I don’t know if I want to, either. I think the impressionistic aspect of his lyrics is not only fun for the listener, it’s kind of fun even in the process to sort of attach your own meaning to what the lyrics are. 

Paste: Do you have any favorite songs, lyrically, from the new album?

Stirratt: I like “Everlasting,” the last tune. I just felt like it’s a song that sort of felt like it’s been there for a while. There’s a permanent feeling to the song, even though it’s pretty new for everyone. 

Paste: Kind of a lived-in thing, where it’s new but familiar? 

Stirratt: It is, lyrically as well as musically, I hope. 

Paste: With Wilco, every time you guys have made an album, you've reinvented yourselves. Does that get exhausting for you? Do you feel any kind of pressure to break new ground every time? Or is that not something you think about much anymore? 

Stirratt: After Ghost Is Born, I remember having this feeling of realizing that we were going to disappoint a lot of people. I don’t know, that record was so much different from Yankee Hotel.  After Yankee Hotel, which was kind of watershed, [we started] realizing that people were going to be disappointed in some way. You know, we’ve always sort of disappointed people, I think even just making sort of not-alt-country records early on. But we’ve never let it bother us in any way that affects process. I think we’ve tried to continue to make honest records. I think the idea of [trying to please everyone] would create contrivance. I think everything has to be really natural. The one rule we have is, "Well, let’s not make the same record again." But there’s so many layers to that. So it’s just a general idea that it’s probably not a good idea to do the same kind of thing twice. But, yeah, we’ve sort of gotten out of that, we've gotten out of the worrying stage of that by now.

Stirratt: Yeah, some people might argue that’s not a good thing [laughs]. It was a resetting to be honest; that word’s been used a lot lately, in politics and everything else. For Sky Blue Sky, we really loved the way the ensemble sounded. This was more a beginning of a new era. I think we wanted to get a little bit more craft in the studio on this record, more overdubs and more atmosphere. I think it’s just beginning now to be honest. It could go so many directions from here. It did feel like Sky Blue Sky was the reset, and that this was the beginning of something else. 

Paste: There's one more thing I wanted to try with you—it's something I ask people a lot during interviews. I kind of ripped it off from this Paul Westerberg documentary I really like called Come Feel Me Tremble. There’s this part in the movie where they sit Paul down on a couch like he's at a shrink and ask him to do free-association with his album titles. Since you’ve been there for every Wilco album, I'm going to say the album titles, and you give me whatever pops into your mind about that period or that record, even if it’s just a word or a phrase.

Stirratt: OK. 

Paste: A.M. 

Stirratt: Quick. 

Paste: Being There.  

Stirratt: Joyous. 

Paste: Mermaid Avenue.

Stirratt: Umm… Oh jeez, the more I ponder I know it ruins the exercise... homage! 

Paste: Summerteeth.  

Stirratt: Confusion. 

Paste: Yankee Hotel Foxtrot.  

Stirratt: Epic. 

Paste: A Ghost Is Born.  

Stirratt: Coma. 

Paste: Kicking Television.  

Stirratt: Umm… film. 

Paste: Sky Blue Sky.

Stirratt: Green.  

Paste: And Wilco (The Album).  

Stirratt: Oh jeez, man. I’m sorry. Let’s see. Oh, God. Lemme just close my eyes and think about it... sweet. I’m sorry, that’s so bad. Is that alright?