It’s the stuff that isn’t in the comic that was scary. Dream in The Kindly Ones, he doesn’t do a lot until he goes to face the Furies. He pops up, has s few scenes here and there, but he doesn’t drive the action. So it was having to sort of invent those scenes, that’s what was really daunting to me. Everything he does before he gets to the Stony Cliff, essentially.
I knew he had to meet Hob in a graveyard and that they had go to a pub. Great. I knew that he ends up facing the Furies and then have his conversations with Matthew and then Death. Yes. But that’s pretty much all I knew in terms of what the comic gives you. So those scenes were mainly about making sure. That viewers understood why Dream was doing what he was doing and why he’s making the choices he’s made. We actually shot a much longer version of the exchange with Matthew, exactly as the comic is, talking about Matthew’s mortality. But it ended up sort of not working, so we didn’t end up using those parts of that scene.
With Death, having her say to him, ‘You’ve been down lower than this before and you’ve come back. Why not come back?”, it was a real opportunity to just add a few lines to the comic that explain why he’s not willing to continue being the kind of Dream he has been up until now. The things he’s gone through these two seasons have shown him that he’s not the Dream the world or this massive universe needs right now, and he’s got to come back as Daniel. Plus, having killed your own son…I can’t even imagine. How do you not relive that moment again and again and again, forever?
I haven’t really talked to anybody about the back half yet, but I was the most afraid of this part of the story going into it. I did not expect it to become my favorite part of the story, but it has.
Paste: I think there’s such an interesting thread throughout this second season about responsibility and duty. What do we owe to our family? What do we owe to those in our care? What do we owe to each other? I would love to know your take on what you think responsibility and duty mean in this universe, especially now that the story is at its end.
Heinberg: I mean, in terms of Dream’s journey, he talks about his responsibilities…
Paste: Constantly.
Heinberg: He gets made fun of for it, especially by Delirium, but I think…he starts from this very macro place, i.e. it’s all about him, and the things he’s meant to be doing. He ends in a much more micro palace, which is, “it’s about them”. By the end, it’s not, “I have a responsibility to my job.” Instead, it’s “I have a responsibility to the people who are affected by the way I do my job.” That’s the difference. And it’s that he’s learned empathy and compassion. His best friend in the world is Hob Gadling, whom he thought was a joke when he met him 600-plus years ago.
It’s a remarkable change. And he wasn’t wrong in terms of his responsibilities.. He thought he was the best Endless out of the seven because he was the best at being an Endless. And he finds out, especially in the course of this second season, that he was actually the worst and that his brother, who he blamed for having been cowardly enough or selfish enough to run away from the things he was supposed to do, actually had the purest heart. Because Destruction’s heart was so pure and breaking, he had to leave.
I honestly find it so moving that this character can take us through…this story is about how you treat other people. It’s about how other people are affected by what you say and what you do. It’s such a simple premise, but it genuinely has seismic repercussions for every character in this universe.
Paste: I love that the ending of the show really touches on the idea that the Endless aren’t maybe technically so endless at all. I mean, we get a mention of the first Despair. That Delirium was once Delight. Destruction walks away from the things he’s supposed to do. There’s a precedent for this sort of seismic change. What does it mean, for you, that the Endless can change in this sort of profound and unexpected way?
Heinberg: I think it means hope. This show just keeps coming back around to hope. Dream deciding to end this incarnation of himself and be reborn as Daniel is a deeply hopeful moment. It’s embracing a more human form of endlessness. Whereas if you look back at his parents [Night and Time], they’re the furthest removed from anything we might describe as compassion or humanity. That generation of the family just has a different way of doing business. But you see shades of gray in Dream’s siblings. Desire, I dont think is the most compassionate of them, but Death really is, and Destiny and Delirium are somewhere in between.
For me, the show is a really thorough and deeply felt investigation of how to be human, of what it means to be human. And the fact that the story is cast on such an epic, mythological scale is fascinating because we’re able to take those lessons in without feeling like they’re didactic or lecture-y or that we’ve been forced to eat our vegetables, narratively speaking.
Paste: One of the more interesting swerves in this adaptation is to send Johanna Constantine with the second Corinthian to find Daniel instead of Matthew. I’d love to hear a bit about your reasons for this decision and what it is about these two characters as a duo and their dynamic together that you found interesting or worth teasing out. (I cannot believe I’m about to say this since he’s a nightmare with teeth for eyes, but I was honestly really rooting for them by the end??)
Ever since Jenna Coleman’s first appearance in Season 1 of The Sandman, we had been looking for ways to bring her back to the show for as many episodes as possible. Jenna’s so brilliant—and working with her is such a pleasure—that we even talked about a spin-off at one point.
So when we got a pick-up for Season Two, which we knew would include The Kindly Ones, Neil [Gaiman, the comics’ creator] had the idea to replace Matthew with Johanna as the Corinthian’s partner during that story. Which allowed us to explore a possible romance—or at least romantic chemistry between the two characters. And the more I thought about it, the more I wanted the Johanna/Corinthian relationship to have been Dream’s parting gift to Johanna in gratitude for her friendship.
Here at last was someone who loves Johanna—whom Johanna could love without worrying that she’ll end up hurting or killing him. The relationship also allowed us to dramatize the ways in which this new Corinthian is different from his predecessor. He’s still a nightmare—and still disarmingly sexy—but he hasn’t been corrupted by life and experience. He’s pure-hearted and vulnerable and loving in ways that inspire her to try to be the same.
Paste: Delirium is my personal favorite of the Endless, and this adaptation of her is so fully in line with how i interpret her. I think it really gets at a lot of why she appeals to people and what it is about her that’s so weird and yet also so strangely appealing and almost comforting, I think. What was your North Star for figuring out how to make the Endless’ youngest annoying weirdo sibling to an audience that’s maybe not that familiar with the comics?
Heinberg: Well, she’s often weird, and annoying in the comics. [laughter]. Dream’s often annoyed by her in the comics, and I thought, “If you cast this wrong or you write this incorrectly, this character is only going to be an irritant. This character is not going to be beloved.” So I would say most of the adaptation…I had written the first four or five scripts by the time we met Esme (Creed-Miles, who plays Delirium).
My take on her from the beginning has been that to me, there’s nothing indulgent in this chaos of hers. To me, she’s an inebriated person who’s sort of trying to get through it all and find her way home. She’s trying to fight through all of what’s going on her brain, in her mind, and in her realm and get it all to make sense. She knows that she knows the truth, but sometimes when you’re inebriated, your eyes and your mouth and your senses, they just don’t work reliably. And that’s our Delirium.
In the comics, she’s constantly saying, “I know things. I know you don’t think I don’t, but I do.” In many ways, the idea that Delirium has all the secrets of the universe at her disposal if she could just remember and make sense of them… it’s really interesting. The idea that maybe she’s the most powerful out of all of them. She’s definitely got that very Hulk-like, “You don’t want to make me angry. I can do things to you if you make me angry” side to her.
And then I will say, casting Esme made all the difference for us. Esme is… something else. Because there were times when I think I included more of the comic book, and Esme was like, “I don’t feel comfortable saying this. It feels too young to me. This isn’t who I am.” And I would realize, yes, that’s exactly right. We should try it differently. So the part really was an extension of Esme in a way.
The Sandman Season 2 is now streaming on Netflix.
Lacy Baugher Milas writes about TV and Books at Paste Magazine, but loves nerding out about all sorts of pop culture. You can find her on Twitter and Bluesky at @LacyMB
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