Ziwe’s Grilling of George Santos: Genius, Questionable, or Somewhere In-between?

On Monday, December 18, 2023, comedian Ziwe posted her interview with disgraced former congressman George Santos. As comedy fans and relentless pop culture consumers, Paste‘s Felicia Reich and Clare Martin decided to dissect the video, which is streaming for free on YouTube.

Clare: I was so disappointed earlier this year when Showtime cancelled Ziwe’s eponymous late night show, so when I saw she would be interviewing George Santos I was super excited—partly because I’d missed her work, and partly because I find Santos perversely fascinating, like a scab you can’t help but pick at. What was your first introduction to Ziwe?

Felicia: I know, right?! I was so excited to hear that she would be returning to our screens in this capacity, perhaps morbidly so when I found out about this particular guest. I loved her old Barbie-esque set, but the Birkin bag stuffed with money in the new iteration really adds an air of sophistication to the whole endeavor, don’t you think?

I first came across Ziwe when I was planning my move to New York City and went down a deep rabbit hole of Fran Lebowitz’s work. I started with Ziwe’s Lebowitz interview and was immediately hooked. I would say my favorite moment from the previous show is the music video for “Wet Diaper (Goo Goo Gah Gah)” which satirizes the infantilization of young female pop singers in society. What was your favorite part of her Showtime series?

Clare: Okay, the Birkin bag filled with cash has to be a reference to the fact that, according to the title cards, Santos asked three times to be paid for the interview?

I’m a big fan of the trickle down economics bop “Stop Being Poor” ft. Patti Harrison, and also just Ziwe’s interview style in general. Speaking of which, let’s get down to business with the Santos interview. She’s doing a send-up of the sports-ified political coverage (love the “Ziwe News Network” graphic à la CNN) that’s gotten us where we are in this country, but she’s also contributing to the cycle of politics as entertainment. It’s worth noting, too, that this isn’t the first time she’s set her sights on politicians; she previously interviewed Andrew Yang and Stacey Abrams.

Anyway, as much as Ziwe is poking fun at Santos, she’s still giving him the air time he so clearly craves.

Felicia: Exactly! He’s playing this charade like he’s morally disgusted with all the crooks in Congress, while simultaneously being a former crook in Congress. Also, saying he hates politicians while he…is a politician. When Ziwe asks Santos to indicate which of his previous Congressional colleagues from a list were corrupt, I find it chilling how he protects Marjorie Taylor Greene. It’s all very ouroboros, and I have to imagine we’re being pranked but I know in my heart we’re not. At the same time, I can’t help but acknowledge that our very talking about it contributes to the growing discourse around this balloon animal.

What would happen if we stopped paying attention to George Santos? I think our cognitive distance between his entertainment value and the actual impact of his alleged crimes is too wide at this point.

Clare: I was about to say the same thing—we are part of the problem! And Santos makes a legitimate point about that at the very end of the interview when Ziwe asks how we can make him leave the limelight. But fuck it, it’s the week before Christmas and I’ve been rewatching this video obsessively.

I think that if we ignored Santos he would probably continue to grift—he seemed to be doing it well before getting elected to office—but thankfully he wouldn’t have a large platform to endorse the genocide of Palestinians (which he does during the chat with Ziwe), condemn gay marriage (despite being in a same-sex union himself), and generally align himself with bigots. Santos is one of those queer people who thinks that by selling others down the river, the establishment will keep him safe. Just a hyperbolically self-centered person. Other than adding oxygen to his little fire, I have to say, at least Ziwe isn’t like Jimmy Kimmel who was literally paying Santos for ridiculous Cameo videos. Santos wants that money.

When I was trying to narrow down my favorite moment of the Ziwe / Santos interview, one that stuck out is when he says he loves Nicki Minaj but refuses to rap for Ziwe, then she recites a bit of Nicki’s verse from “Monster” to get him to finish the line. It’s not a “gotcha” moment or anything, but it just reminds me how good she is at getting interviewees to let their guard down when they’re in protection mode (before she decides to pull the rug out from under them). What’s your favorite part of the interview?

Felicia: Oh, it must be when Ziwe eggs Santos to keep saying “icon,” and then turns it around to him with a pointed finger, saying “You-con!” Lol, it’s clever in Ziwe’s classic comedic style, and a more than an aproppriate nod to his criminal allegations.

Ziwe has the most fantastic “gotcha” tactic that is simply to ask level-headed questions without giving an inch to the interviewee’s discomfort. She lets them put their own foot in their mouth, as she did with Santos on multiple occasions, such as another favorite moment when Santos doubles down that he “doesn’t see color” because he “grew up in Queens.” Like, what? When Ziwe’s series first aired on Showtime, my friend told me her father complained it was “racist against white people,” or *cringe* “reverse racist” (not a thing). Having racists (or…people demonstrating racists beliefs and behaviors) on Ziwe’s show doesn’t make her show racist—it makes it enlightened. We’re incredibly lucky it’s back on air because the world is on fire, and we need her to expose the deep-seated, often obvious bigotry of people with such powerful platforms as Santos. I wouldn’t minimize how damaging Santos’ ideologies and rhetoric can be to the safety and wellbeing of the American people, just because he’s a goofy dumb-dumb who people have a hard time taking seriously. It’s scary because people do take him seriously to support their own prejudices, using his status and weaponized identity, as you alluded to, to justify their hate. Also, saying he doesn’t wear Hermes while his Hermes bracelet has remained in frame for the entire episode…the camera op deserves an Emmy for that.

Was there anything missing from the interview that you wished we got to see? Anything you wanted to see more of?

Clare: Honestly, no, I think Ziwe really gave it socks here. I think the choice to feature Santos at all is questionable, as we talked about before, but if you’re going to do it, she did it the right way. Also I have to shout out the editors—their quick cuts, or those interminable, awkward moments they let linger, are so key.

What about you, Felicia? Anything else you would’ve liked to see in the interview? And who would you like to see her interview next?

Felicia: I’d have to agree. One to add before we close is when he says Bowen Yang deserves an EGOT for his portrayal of Santos on SNL—yet another swing and a miss to appear relatable to a young, queer audience. I can’t stop watching this interview, but for something a little less dystopian, I’d love to see Paris Hilton sitting across from Ziwe on set. Now, that would be hot!

What about you? Who would you like to see?

Clare: Paris Hilton doing a cover of “Stop Being Poor” would be extra mind-blowing.