Jonathan Van Ness Talks Trans Justice on Armchair Expert

The Genderbread Person is a comprehensive learning device used by health and LGBTQIA+ educators to explain the many levels and combinations with which a single person can express themselves and their identity in the world.

Within the doughy parameters of this outlined individual, a framework first published by queer public speaker Sam Killermann in 2011, resides four categories: Identity (how a person views themselves); Expression (how a person presents their identity to the world); Attraction (what a person feels towards others), and Sex (their biological anatomy). Each element, including Anatomical Sex, lies on two spectrums, and this version of the Genderbread Person even breaks down the binary further by differentiating between Romantic and Sexual Attraction. Anatomical Sex, for example, can range anywhere along the lines of both Female-ness and Male-ness. Although instances of people born with intersex variations are rare–such as the author of Inverse Cowgirl, intersex activist Alicia Roth Weigel–they’re not insignificant. Weigel has an androgen sensitivity in which she possesses both the X and Y chromosomes. Growing up, she needed to wear an expander to make her body capable of having penetrative sex, should the time ever arrive for her to do so, as a girl born with testes. As a child, her testes were removed, and she was put on hormones later in life in order to send her body through puberty.

“For intersex people, surgery is encouraged to enforce this idea of the gender binary. And what biologists will tell you is that it is not exactly one and two – it’s an oversimplification of biology,” says Jonathan Van Ness, queer activist and media personality from the TV show Queer Eye, during his recent podcast appearance on actor Dax Shepard’s talk show, Armchair Expert.

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Van Ness discusses the topic of intersex traits and more on the September 25th episode, one which has since sparked much attention for the obvious emotional labor Van Ness put forth in dispelling the misinformed, yet widespread assertions that came up in the episode about trans people and their place in society. Along with co-host Monica Padman, the three talked about trans rights, transphobic propaganda, and the history of scapegoating minority populations in this country. Van Ness, 36, identifies as nonbinary and divulges in the episode his own ongoing struggles with gender, despite his prominent position as a queer role model in popular culture.

“I sometimes really wrestle with my own gender identity. I’m not sure I’m not trans.”

Then, later, “I don’t know that I don’t live like this [as nonbinary instead of trans] because I’m scared of the vitriol that trans people face every day.”

One of the most pervasive ploys of transphobic propaganda surrounds the inclusion of trans people, specifically trans kids and those who have transitioned, in gendered sports. In this episode, Van Ness debunks the myth of “unfairness” in sports and the potential dangers female athletes may face while playing with trans women, stating the claim that sports are inherently dangerous and physical, as well as the huge spectrum of women’s abilities. Plus, “How little do we think of women athletes?”

As a child, Van Ness participated in cheerleading and gymnastics, and he attributes his involvement with these predominantly-female sports to saving his life in high school.

“I could just like cry because I’m just so tired of having to like fight for little kids because they just want to be included.”

Most young kids who want to play a sport or join any gendered activity are not looking to go pro, he puts into perspective, but are looking to make friends, feel like they belong, and learn the confidence and crucial life skills such activities instill.

In this arresting dialogue, the group comes to the topic by way of discussing The New York Times’ place in the media. “The New York Times isn’t left-leaning…They’re anti-trans,” says Van Ness. Although they are more liberal than Fox News, he concedes, he maintains his stance. With regard to the Times giving a platform to voices promoting beliefs and ideologies “against trans liberation,“ hundreds of journalists and contributors to the newspaper sent the Times a joint letter condemning their harmful coverage of trans topics, a letter Van Ness himself signed.

“You can not be transphobic and still have thoughts that espouse transmisogyny and espouse transphobic ideologies or beliefs, and not be transphobic. Just like I have to challenge biases against white privileges,” Van Ness says in the interview, citing other historical occurances of the scapegoating of minorities.

With 1.3 million of the 300 million population in the United States identifying as trans and the over 500 bills in place this year alone impeding trans rights, the popular response to gender-affirming care, access to appropriate bathrooms, and inclusion in sports, is not on par with the size of the population these bills are affecting. “What we know about misinformation and disinformation,” Van Ness emphasizes, “is when you have an outsized reaction to something, there’s a good chance that you’re being exposed to misinformation and disinformation.”

Prior to the episode, the two Armchair Expert hosts, Shepherd and Padman, issued a brief introduction with a trigger warning for discussion of trans rights, and referred to the topics of conversation as the “debates” that people are having right now about trans justice. However, the ideas put forth are not arguments in a debate, but the perpetuation of misinformed beliefs reinforced by systemic power. While Shepherd claims to not agree with the ideologies he presents on the show, he parrots a lot of the anti-trans rhetoric used today. Brought to tears at one point in the episode, Jonathan Van Ness says to Dax Shepherd, “I’m not disappointed in you. I’m just emotionally exhausted.” And earlier, to Shepherd, “I feel like I’m talking to my dad.”

“We’re coming from a place of scarcity and not from a place of abundance. There is enough for everyone. We’ve been told by colonialism, by white supremacy, by the patriarchy that there is not enough for everyone and that there is always a boogeyman. In the fifties, it was communism. In the sixties it was fucking hippies. In the seventies and eighties it was Russians and the Cold War…And now we are really looking at queer people, and it does hurt my heart to see people who I respect taking up positions [against queer people].”